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pausanias and agathon

The document proposes that “The ideas/opinions/statements expressed (in bold) are amongst those that members might hear articulated and which we believe can (and need) to be responded to. [4] Agathon was also the first playwright to write choral parts which were apparently independent from the main plot of his plays. The men talk about whether love between a man and a woman is different from love between men, and conclude that the latter is better because men are, simply by being men, better. Un article de Wikipédia, l'encyclopédie libre. J.-C.[2]. On sait par ailleurs qu'Agathon s'attira les moqueries du dramaturge Aristophane qui le caricature dans sa comédie Les Thesmophories sous les traits d'un homme efféminé qui se travestit et pratique une homosexualité passive[4]. He was famous as an "effeminate" homosexual. We simply can’t say. Au cours de son intervention, il évoque les amours dirigés tantôt vers les femmes et tantôt vers les hommes, qui relèvent de l'Aphrodite commune, et il fait plus particulièrement l'éloge de la pédérastie qu'il lie à l'Aphrodite céleste. One can feel the first sort for boys or for women, but the second sort is only felt for men. Pausanias est mentionné dans plusieurs textes grecs antiques. A boy should wait for the right sort of man, one who is interested in his soul rather than his body, and it is right for such a man to be given sexual access to the boy’s body. J.-C., un Athénien du dème Kerameis [1], amant du poète Agathon. Au cours du dialogue, Pausanias est le deuxième, après Phèdre, à prononcer un discours sur Éros (de 180c à 185c); il y distingue notamment deux Aphrodites, l'une commune et l'autre céleste (180d-181a). Agathon's extraordinary physical beauty is brought up repeatedly in the sources; the historian W. Rhys Roberts observes that "ὁ καλός Ἀγάθων (ho kalos Agathon) has become almost a stereotyped phrase. He is best known for his appearance in Plato's Symposium, which describes the banquet given to celebrate his obtaining a prize for his first tragedy at the Lenaia in 416. Il apparaît principalement dans deux dialogues de Platon, le Protagoras et Le Banquet. J.-C.) était, dans la Grèce du Ve siècle av. The other main source for Agathon, a prize-winning playwright, is Aristophanes who, in his comedy Women at the Thesmophoria, has a camp, cross-dressing Agathon. On sait très peu d'autres choses à son sujet. Reflecting on sexuality around the Church of England Shared Conversations. Sorry, your blog cannot share posts by email. Pingback: Sexuality and the body: using ancient sources to support modern ideas, Pingback: Sexuality and the body: using ancient sources to support modern ideas | MotionBump Reader. [3] Together with Pausanias, he later moved to the court of Archelaus, king of Macedon, who was recruiting playwrights; it is here that he probably died around 401 BC. Agathon was the son of Tisamenus,[2] and the lover of Pausanias, with whom he appears in both the Symposium and Plato's Protagoras. But was this like a modern ‘faithful same sex relationship’? Agathon was the son of Tisamenus, and the lover of Pausanias, with whom he appears in both the Symposium and Plato's Protagoras. The thoughts/responses offered are a resource from the (elected members of) the Committee to help reflection on the likely issues and questions.”. Plus loin dans le dialogue, le dramaturge Aristophane, qui intervient également dans le dialogue, fait une allusion peut-être moqueuse aux deux hommes[7]. Stylistic evidence suggests that the poem (with most of Plato's other alleged epigrams) was actually written some time after Plato had died: its form is that of the Hellenistic erotic epigram, which did not become popular until after 300 BC. Giulia Sissa identifies the two Agathons as two versions of the same man, and compares the ‘platonic glorification’ of one Agathon to the ‘comedic denigration’ of the other. The section of the document I have in mind is a potential response to someone expressing the view that ‘Scripture isn’t clear on a number of issues regarding human sexuality’ and it goes like this: “Some have suggested that faithful same sex relationships were not known in (pre) biblical times and therefore the bible is silent on this matter. Aelian (13.4) and Plutarch (Moralia 177a) have an anecdote about the tragic poet Euripides getting drunk and kissing Agathon even though the latter was ‘about 40 years old’ (Aelian) or ‘already bearded’ (Plutarch). Aux époques postérieures, Pausanias est cité dans Les Deipnosophistes d'Athénée (au livre V) et dans l’Histoire variée d'Élien (livre II). The epideictic speech in praise of love which Agathon recites in the Symposium is full of beautiful but artificial rhetorical expressions, and has led some scholars to believe he may have been a student of Gorgias. Pausanias d'Athènes (en grec ancien Παυσανίας, actif autour de 420 av. His boyfriend was Pausanias and they had a 10-15 years long relationship.’. I’m not denying that Pausanias and Agathon were used in the ancient world as an example of a relationship which went on for much longer than the erastês and erômenos type normally did. But I’ve a deeper concern, and that regards something I’ve commented on already in this blog: the use of the ancient Greeks without any sense of historical context. Both Pausanias and Agathon are present, as is the playwright Aristophanes. His boyfriend was Pausanias and they had a 10-15 years long relationship. Au moment où se déroule le dialogue, Pausanias est âgé d'une cinquantaine d'années environ[6]. This is not true: such relationships are acknowledged by Plato and others, and it is likely that Alexander the Great was in a same sex relationship with Hephaestion, as was Pausanius with poet Agathon.”.

I’ll concentrate here on the claim about Pausanias (not Pausanius) and Agathon. Snyder theorizes that Agathon might have made a deliberate effort to mimic the sumptuous attire of his famous fellow-poet, although by Agathon's time, such clothing, especially the κεκρύφαλος (kekryphalos, an elaborate covering for the hair) had long fallen out of fashion for men. I think not. Thinking Anglicans notes that the Evangelical Group of the General Synod, EGGS, has issued this briefing document to its members and friends ahead of General Synod’s shared conversations, scheduled to start on 10 July. La première intervention de Pausanias se trouve en 176a.

Agathon introduced certain innovations into the Greek theater: Aristotle tells us in the Poetics (1456a) that the characters and plot of his Anthoswere original and not, following Athenian dramatic orthodoxy, borrowe… Together with Pausanias, he later moved to the court of Archelaus, king of Macedon, who was recruiting playwrights; it is here that he probably died around 401 BC. Of Agathon's plays, only six titles and thirty-one fragments have survived: Fragments in A Nauck, Tragicorum graecorum fragmenta (1887). Agathon introduced certain innovations into the Greek theater: Aristotle tells us in the Poetics (1456a) that the characters and plot of his Anthos were original and not, following Athenian dramatic orthodoxy, borrowed from mythological or historical subjects. Agathon est alors un meirakion (classe d'âge désignant les jeunes hommes âgés d'entre 14 et 21 ans environ) et il est présenté comme étant le paidika (aimé) de Pausanias[3]. The suggestion that the relationship was unusual because it went on longer than normal, beyond the point when the younger partner grows body hair, is clear. Agathon has been thought to be the subject of Lovers' Lips, an epigram attributed to Plato: Although the authenticity of this epigram was accepted for many centuries, it was probably not composed for Agathon the tragedian, nor was it composed by Plato.

Post was not sent - check your email addresses! So the argument being made is that those who say the Bible doesn’t mention ‘faithful same sex relationships’ because they didn’t exist are wrong: such relationships did exist, so if the Bible had wanted to mention them, it could have done. Change ), You are commenting using your Facebook account. Whether we see Agathon as the effeminate man of Aristophanes’ play or the champion of love (only to be challenged by Socrates!) The term ‘(pre) biblical times’ makes no sense to me; I wonder if they meant ‘pre-New Testament times’. Diogenes Laertius (Life of Plato 32) quotes a verse attributed to Plato about kissing Agathon and feeling his soul was trying to pass across to the other man, but this is included in a range of other lines attributed to Plato about both men and women he loved, and from its verse form appears to have been written after Plato’s death. Scholars are unsure how much of Aristophanes' portrayal is fact and how much mere comic invention. No women are in the room, because the only woman who was there – a flute-girl – has been asked to leave. "[5] The most detailed surviving description of Agathon is in the Thesmophoriazousae, in which Agathon appears as a pale, clean-shaven young man dressed in women's clothes. in Plato, this isn’t the twenty-first century. tantôt vers les femmes et tantôt vers les hommes, https://fr.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pausanias_d%27Athènes&oldid=165814646, Portail:Sciences humaines et sociales/Articles liés, licence Creative Commons attribution, partage dans les mêmes conditions, comment citer les auteurs et mentionner la licence.

( Log Out /  Change ), You are commenting using your Twitter account. According to this interpretation, Agathon is mocked in the Thesmophoriazousae not only for his notorious effeminacy, but also for the pretentiousness of his dress: "he seems to think of himself, in all his elegant finery, as a rival to the old Ionian poets, perhaps even to Anacreon himself."[6]. J.-C., un Athénien du dème Kerameis[1], amant du poète Agathon. This, I think, is systematic of the casual use of history by some Christians, and it contributes to a rejection of Christianity, as something requiring believers to leave their brains outside the church door. When challenged on this, Euripides replied ‘it’s not just spring that is excellent in attractive men – so is autumn’. ( Log Out / 

‘Agathon was an Athenian dramatist (c. 450-400 BC) and he was gay. Pausanias and Agathon: a ‘same sex relationship’? Agathon is portrayed by Plato as a handsome young man, well dressed, of polished manners, courted by the fashion, wealth and wisdom of Athens, and dispensing hospitality with ease and refinement. In the Symposium, Agathon is presented as the friend of the comic poet Aristophanes, but this alleged friendship did not prevent Aristophanes from harshly criticizing Agathon in at least two of his comic plays: the Thesmophoriazousae and the (now lost) Gerytades. I think Christian writers need to do a lot better than this sort of casual history which treats all the sources at the same level and assumes a simple mapping between then and now.

Agathon’s speech, and especially that of Pausanias, seem to me to cause the appearance in the Symposium of something like a critique launched by Socrates against the association of paiderastia with philosophia in the framework of an Athenian convention associating the provisional acceptance of sexual relations between a boy or a young man and an older man with the transmission of material, political, … Xénophon confond le discours de Pausanias avec celui de Phèdre dans. Dans le Protagoras, Pausanias et Agathon sont installés côte à côte, près du lit du sophiste Prodicos de Céos. L'action du Protagoras de Platon se déroule en 432 av.

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